VW-Nazis Must Die!

"Mark - Sixpots None The Richer" (marklinde) 06/25/2014 at 14:42 • Filed to: Germany, Kolbenfresser

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I'm all for black humor, but even if I greenly assume it's politically incorrect fun this wall decoration is going way too far.

It reminds me of those dreadful "Waffenschmiede Wolfsburg" ("Armory Wolfsburg") stickers:

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Or even more revealing:

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You can also find those symbols on T-Shirts and so on. Even without considering the specific history of VW this shit is inexcusable!

Why you are allowed to sell and buy those in Germany is beyond me since our laws specifically prohibit Nazi symbolism. Admittedly there is a huge grey area, but we live in a country were a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! for selling obvious anti-fascist paraphernalia which shows the swastika. He wasn't found guilty in the end, but you can imagine the severity of our Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution when it comes to Nazi propaganda and symbolism.

This leaves a sour taste in my mouth although retarded bullshit !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! is gladly impossible over here.

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I found the picture on top while browsing for cheap pre 1990 coupes.

To end my rant on a more positive note: The Monza is becoming more attractive with every year that passes...

For Sweden > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 14:44

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Fascist imagery in car culture has a long history.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > For Sweden 06/25/2014 at 14:46

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I dont get that one

Bricks > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 06/25/2014 at 14:47

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imperial japanese symbol, they were brutal to china and the rest of asia during WWII

For Sweden > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 06/25/2014 at 14:50

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It's the Japanese Rising Sun Flag; the military flag of Japan during its conquest of Asia under the Imperial Rule Assistance Association.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 06/25/2014 at 14:50

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Japanese imperial military during WWII. Among the various war crimes they committed, the "kamikaze" suicide pilots show how little regard they had for their own people, let alone human life in general. Although the rising sun is quite a beautiful and artistic design, its use as a symbol is that of a pretty horrible war machine not even a hundred years ago. But it often gets a free pass on cars because JDM.

Cé hé sin > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 14:52

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Do you still see Monzas in Germany? I don't think I've seen one in decades.

Denver Is Stuck In The 90s > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 06/25/2014 at 14:53

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Did not know that, now I do

Bricks > For Sweden 06/25/2014 at 14:53

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I remember a guy i used to watch on youtube complained about how people were saying that the japanese earthquake/tsunami was payback for pearl harbor, I felt at the time like it was payback for all the other shit they did in the region during WWII.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 14:53

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I'm actually having a really hard time forming an opinion about this.

thebigbossyboss > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 06/25/2014 at 14:56

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That would be the flag of imperial Japan. Which was (is?) known for it's rather brutal occupation of some territories.

"It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers – and, in the case of the Japanese, as prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 per cent chance of not surviving the war; the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 per cent." - Chalmers Johnson, Historian.

thebigbossyboss > For Sweden 06/25/2014 at 14:56

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It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers – and, in the case of the Japanese, as prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 per cent chance of not surviving the war; the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 per cent. - Chalmers Johnson, Historian.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Denver Is Stuck In The 90s 06/25/2014 at 14:57

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twochevrons > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 14:58

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I own a Mk2 VW Scirocco, and I've always felt slightly uneasy about how such imagery is bandied around by some members of the community. Especially when I've often seen it in conjunction with a fairly strong interest in Nazi memorabilia...

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Cé hé sin 06/25/2014 at 15:05

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They are very rare in the wild, and the ones you do see tend to be quite beige so not necessarily in a desirable (speak "sporty") spec like the one above.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 06/25/2014 at 15:05

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Care to explain?

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > twochevrons 06/25/2014 at 15:08

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Yeah, Nazis and other monads can be found in every car community of course, but I know what you mean.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 15:08

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Part of me thinks that it isn't a huge deal and slightly funny, possibly analogous to people having confederate flags on their car here in the States, but the other part of me finds it distasteful given the amount of people who were harmed by those that wore that insignia.

Cé hé sin > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 15:12

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I had to ask Herr Google about the Nebelscheinwerfer. "Foglight" doesn't sound near as impressive.

As I recall Monzas were all either silver or metallic beige and the running costs and resale values of cars this size being what they are meant that they vanished almost as soon as production ceased.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > For Sweden 06/25/2014 at 15:26

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That's definetely true and easily explained since cars are without a question representing a person like the clothes he wears.

And - fascist symbolism aside - martial and/or military imagery has a certain provocative outlaw appeal. For example the Black and Iron Cross:

Whether those are expressing a right-wing attitude is not for me to decide until I spoke to the owner. Yet there will always be a doubt...

The Compromiser > thebigbossyboss 06/25/2014 at 15:30

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For supporting the Dolittle raid (providing the landing zones) The Japanese Army Executed 250 000 Chinese Citizens.- $10VideoGame

The Compromiser > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 15:33

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Neither of those examples are specific or indicative of the Nazi Party. They are German national military symbols that pre-date the National Socialist movement. Also the second one looks more Maltese than German.That would make it closer to a Templar symbol.

The Compromiser > Cé hé sin 06/25/2014 at 15:35

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The Technical German still amazes me. they just call it what it is. I don't Sprecken, but I would guess the literal translation is "light for seeing in fog"?

Cé hé sin > The Compromiser 06/25/2014 at 15:39

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More like "fogshinethrower". They do this kind of thing in Scandinavia as well to an extent.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 06/25/2014 at 15:40

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Just last week I sat on a table with a polish family and a Cameroonian. We know each other well enough so we can laugh about the kind of black humor I would never write down here without context.

That's important because the Monza guy could be a nice person with an acid-tongued humor and no questionable motives whatsoever.

What I find disturbing is that he is showing this - alleged - humor without any context. I simply have a hard time giving him the benefit of a doubt here.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Cé hé sin 06/25/2014 at 15:42

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Exactly. :-)

roflcopter > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 15:46

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Our local VW group, Panhandle Dubs, uses a very similar logo on a lot of things. As you can see on the window of this one a lot of the members rock them on their cars and I've always found it a bit strange, especially when you ask some people why they picked that and they honestly don't even know what it is...

The Compromiser > Cé hé sin 06/25/2014 at 15:51

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I remember reading a book and in it they made up a word for technical German and I swear it was more than half a page long. I can't remember what the word was, or what it meant or was for even. The book was Gravity's Rainbow I think.

Cé hé sin > The Compromiser 06/25/2014 at 15:57

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At one time you could have said Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz.

But not any more as it's been officially retired.

Frank Grimes > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 15:59

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Every race and nation has done terrible inexcusable things and it seems everyone wants to point a finger at the other.

I must admit I had a sticker with that eagle and VW emblem on my beetle. I wasnt a nazi then or am I now. I put it one there because the car is german I liked the eagle and though it looked cool and the vw nazi connection was interesting to me but I never gave it much thought that anyone would associate me with being a hating or racist person.

I think we should be considerate of other people but I just dont see how it is offensive using the swatzika yes but using a eagle over a vw emblem I think is a step or two removed. Or maybe I am a hypocrite.

using the confederate flag is distasteful and wrong to me because most people I have met who display it are actually really authentically racist and live in some world where living on the west coast but wishing for the old southern tradition of slavery and what not is cool and desirable. Also many times the confederate flag is displayed with some "the south will rise again" slogan. What does that even mean? People want slavery again? People want to south to ally themselves form militias and take over the country?

I think its time to get past these symbols and let them die. does a swatzika even mean anything today? Why cant I have a hitler stache it should be renamed the chaplin stache so it can be worn without ridicule

Frank Grimes > The Compromiser 06/25/2014 at 16:01

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and the iron cross most of those crosses are indetified as in my understanding are a war medal for courage that predates the nazis.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > The Compromiser 06/25/2014 at 16:03

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Look at the side mirror of the hot rod too it's clearly meant to be an Iron Cross. And read my comment again - I never stated that those are Nazi symbols.

They are also very "Rock & Roll" and used without any ideological intend. Just look at countless motorcycles, hot rods and Lemmy Kilmister.

So, of course, not everyone using those symbols has a political agenda, but guess what the German Nazis do? They use the legal military and national symbols as well.

Like I wrote, it's a grey area.

ly2v8-Brian > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 16:20

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Here is a Beetle I saw at a car show in Minnesota using the same emblem.

I will say the current Bundesadler was also used during the early Nazi era (until 1935), then replaced with the style you see in the photos used. Though I am not a fan of the Nazis (I mean other than the most moronic of people who is?) The specific way the eagle is looking matters the most. In the pictures the eagle is looking to the left. That is the Reichsadler (so it is representive of Germany as a whole, in a way). The identical symbol with the eagle facing right is the Parteiadler of the NSDAP (that is the one you DEFINITELY don't want to use). I'm okay with it as long as the Hakenkreutz is left out.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Frank Grimes 06/25/2014 at 16:22

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but using a eagle over a vw emblem I think is a step or two removed

Uhm, this is the official "Reichsadler". Look at the picture on top and count the steps out loud again please...

Or maybe I am a hypocrite.

Yes, I'm sorry, in this case you are!

does a swatzika even mean anything today?

It represents one of the most atrocious regimes in human history and the crimes against humanity it committed. And don't give me the Buddhism bullshit. Monza Guy is NOT a Buddhist.

This is not something we should let die - ever!

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > ly2v8-Brian 06/25/2014 at 16:33

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Here you have all the Eagles.

And while your facts are right, I don't think there should be any difference made in treating both Reichadlers. Whether it's the coat of arm of the Führer or the Reich is more of a rethorical debate than an ideological one. It doesn't really matter to me whether Monza Guy loves The Führer or "only" The Third Reich.

It's both plain wrong.

The Compromiser > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 16:36

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I reread your original statement and yes I misread it. They are not Nazi symbols. they are military symbols. The government in power used/uses them for the military. That includes the period that the Nazi Party were in power, but also the Kaiser, and IIRC the Prussian Emperor and the current government. Although they may be slightly modified , they are all legitimate.

Disclaimer: I am not supporting the ideal of Nazism, nor do I think the original topic of the post is wrong. Using the symbol with the VW in it isn't the same as the Maltese/Iron cross, or the Military Cross.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > The Compromiser 06/25/2014 at 16:40

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Agreed!

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > The Compromiser 06/25/2014 at 16:49

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The literal translation is simply "fog headlights".

In German you can throw nouns together as you please so we just say "fogheadlights".

You can say for example: "Nebelscheinwerferwaschmittelsprühdose" which I think nobody said or wrote down before, but is grammatically an absolut correct word.

It simply means "fogheadlightwashingfluiddispenserbottle".

Of course no one writes a word like this down in real life because a text like this would be unreadable. You can use hyphen or break up the words.

ly2v8-Brian > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 16:54

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It's hard to say really. And I know that it is a touchy subject in Germany. To you it is a symbol of a very dark blemish of your nation's past, but to another it is just a stylized depiction of an eagle. Unless they are spreading hate. I say live and let live.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > ly2v8-Brian 06/25/2014 at 17:29

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I just want to make sure that you understand that it isn't a touchy subject only in Germany. Just think about the countries and people - including of course US citizens - who had to suffer because of the atrocities committed by the Third Reich all over the world.

And it's not in a distant past either since there are still contemporary witnesses around and people are still dying because of the war. This tragic incident happened 1.6 miles from where I'm sitting now and I felt the blast back then.

And all of this happened because the Nazis violated your own rule:

I say live and let live.

The Adler might be as important to you as the Confederate Flag is for me, but I know what the latter symbolizes - for some people at least - and I therefore understand why they are offended by it.

That's why I wouldn't put the flag - or anything hinting to it - on my imaginary Charger even if I was a huge Dukes of Hazzard fan. Although it wouldn't be my intention to spread hate, I'd still "spread hurt".

Whatever Monza Guy is/was doing, he absolutely ignored what I wrote just now. I can't tolerate that.

ly2v8-Brian > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/25/2014 at 17:46

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Yeah I know what you're saying. I know my Family was affected by the war (no veterans, but my grandma's family was still in contact with family in Germany, but they lost contact (I do not know the full story of what happened though)), I wouldn't have been born in Germany if not for the war and its after effects. I honestly feel the same way, but I was attempting (maybe feebly) to shed light on the other side. Good debate nonetheless

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > roflcopter 06/25/2014 at 19:03

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"Dem Panhandle Dubs are out there..."

DipodomysDeserti > Bricks 06/25/2014 at 19:57

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As if the two atomic bombs they had dropped on them weren't enough?

DipodomysDeserti > For Sweden 06/25/2014 at 20:08

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Except that the rising sun flag is still used for military purposes in Japan, as it was in use before WWII as a symbol of good luck. It's still the flag of the Japan Maritime Defense Force an of the Japanese ground forces. It's also used on many commercial products in Japan.

For Sweden > DipodomysDeserti 06/25/2014 at 20:25

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The Japanese aren't big on recognizing their fascist past

DipodomysDeserti > For Sweden 06/25/2014 at 21:57

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Some cultures have a view of their past that goes back further than the 20th century believe it or not.

For Sweden > DipodomysDeserti 06/25/2014 at 22:22

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If that helps them sleep at night while the souls of tens of millions of murdered Asians scream eternally.

DipodomysDeserti > For Sweden 06/25/2014 at 23:40

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I don't know about that. I'm American, and my country has killed countless Indians, Filipinos, Vietnamese, Japanese, Germans, Iraqis, Afghans, Mexicans, Africans, South Americans, and Pakistanis throughout the years but I don't hear any screaming at night. And my country has used the same symbols and flags through all those murdered peoples. I guess that's because the Americans still run things. Once we are defeated as a nation we will be viewed in similar disrepute.

For Sweden > DipodomysDeserti 06/26/2014 at 00:38

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Your country owns up to it.

Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/26/2014 at 10:16

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I went to a BMW meet a while ago and there was a German army 'inspired ' car there:

It had more Nazi symbols on it. I'm not sure..

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder 06/26/2014 at 10:40

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I actually read your article about the Sharknose meet where you found this BMW, and I thought about the car back then.

It's difficult to judge a person unless you really know him/her. I think I'll give the owner a pass in this case because in my opinion this car fits the black humor I was referring to.

I'm not a political correctness crusader or sensitive killjoy by any means.

The fact that the car is so over the top and - unlike the wall decoration - is out in the open so you can see and talk to the owner makes me hope for the best here.

It's a bit like alcoholicsm, the moment someone tries to hide a drinking habit, there is something wrong.

Would I decorate my Beamer like this? No, probably not. And I'd understand if people were offended by this paintjob.

If I had to make a military scheme I'd pick a less offending theme. Make it Spitfire or P51 related. Or maybe base it on this one:

Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/26/2014 at 11:29

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I actually did like the BMW, but the car was getting some negative attention.

You had 2 types of BMW owners at that meet, Older men with their spotless Alpina or 7-series with all original parts etc.

People that looked like this:

there were the young owner, the D-bag type, that drive badly maintained BMW with bad mods etc.

Overall the younger people liked this car better because it was a big statement and really something else than the rest of the lot.

Both types of BMW owner had one thing in common; they both smoke.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder 06/26/2014 at 13:21

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Those Beamer D-Bags you described are one of the reasons for me to dismiss an affordable (speak: cheap) BMW as a car I'd want to own. Yes, I'm image-conscious in that respect.

To stay on topic: They might be idiots, but it's a bit of a stretch to assume that they are Nazis or Nazi-sympathizer.

Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder > Mark - Sixpots None The Richer 06/26/2014 at 13:32

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I do not think they are Nazi's or Nazi-symphatizers, but that the younger people can see the joke in the car and appreciate the dark humor more and easier than the old folk.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Pabuuu, JDM car enthusiast & Italian parts hoarder 06/26/2014 at 14:04

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Agreed and I know what you meant. I just wanted to stay on topic. :-)